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Path to monetisation & killer advice for creating in a taboo space with The Deep’s host Zoe Marshall

Updated: Aug 12, 2022

Today on the show we are learning from Zoe Marshall. The founder and host of The Deep Podcast.

From terminal parents to sex workers, extremists and drug addicts, The Deep is a place for thought-provoking conversations that help us explore who we are, when no one is looking.

Cracked wide open by her past trauma, grief and abuse, Zoe holds the space for others to share their fascinating stories and perspectives through these deep conversations. I absolutely LOVED this episode, so much. We got down to the business model of how to monetise something that’s sensitive and sits almost in a taboo area. We also go through Zoe’s key learning in creating the show and her advice if you’re creating something that can be seen as taboo or even controversial.

If you get something out of this episode and you love it just as much as I do, please do share it to your IG stories and tag us @femalestartupclub! I am forever grateful when you do that! And as you know you can always slide into my DM’s on IG to chat and tell me what you’re up to.

Please note, this transcript has been copy pasted without the lovely touch of a human editor. Please expect some typos!

Hello Zoe! Welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast. Oh my gosh, how exciting to be on the other side. I know, right, It's so nice, thank you for having me, it's different, it's a different brain that we have to utilize when you're on the flip side, makes me nervous. It's easier being on my side if you're nervous, how do I? I was like, if you're nervous, how should I feel? No, it's like, I really feel like when I'm on someone else's podcast, like the pressure is just so intense versus like being on this side, it's like I can do this with my eyes shut at this point. It's kind of like, it's in a way, it's like performative, you know what I mean? Like we want to be good. Wanna be interesting. We want to give value versus when you're like holding the interview, it's such a different skill, isn't it? 100%. And that fear of like, I get the quick second, like self doubt that's happening as I'm talking. So I'll be like trying to explain something and then I'm like, funk. Was that good enough or was it not good enough? Like, do I need to backtrack? Did I explain that? I believe that 100%. It's such a woman thing too. I know it is the being crippled by perfection thing. Hate that for us. Gosh, I love a good Aussie accent makes me miss home so much. I know. Where are you? I'm based in London at the moment, but I'm actually moving home to Australia in october. We like move out of our flat in next week I think and then we go to europe for the summer, like forever, like forever home coming back, wow, seven years don't make me become the, I'm so excited to chat with you today and hopefully meet you in person in october. I'd love that, I'm excited to learn about your podcast journey, what you've been building, how you've been creating, and I want to go back to life before you started the podcast to understand what you are up to, what you were doing, what was getting you interested in starting a podcast that was so deep for lack of a better word. I know, right? Um I had been in mainstream media for God, I can't even do the maths, but you know, 10 or 12 years and I had done music shows and I had hosted a hip of different radio shows, on I don't know who's listening to this or what the demographic is, but like Kiss, like so super mainstream um shows. Um and then went over to new Zealand and did like cooking and travel shows and more radio and then came home and did more radio and I just was feeling very mhm frustrated by, you know, firstly the being typecast is, you know, um stereotypically commercially pretty girl that doesn't have many opinions and just says the things and follows the auto cue or this is the script or these are our talk points and like you can inject a bit of personality, but not too much. And then I met my footballer husband, which just made things so much more basic bitch, you know, like I had to fight that stereotype of being a wag so much harder, I had to fight for my job's harder, I had to like to make space for myself. And I remember doing a show, it was called The Three PM Pick Up on Kiss and it was really targeted towards moms and Children, which is so funny, not Children, but you know, they're in the car generally at that time and me coming in with this content that I thought was just like hilarious and different and unique and one of we kept on getting complaints about me from the callers, You know, I did a segment on foreskin facials, how this was like the new thing in the states that like women were getting stem cells out of force or maybe it was like an asian country. I remember out of stem cells have foreskins and rubbing them on their faces and it was like this big thing and they were just like, you can't talk about that and you can't talk about this. And I remember having like, interesting people pop up and wanting to talk about their mental health or something, you know, traumatic that had happened, they're like, no, no, no, just let's just keep it all really sterile. Um and so for a long time it was brewing and then I tried to create a concept called The Truth, which is so cute now in like retrospect and it was like a talk show style format with a mix of celebrity and normal people pulling out, you know, a conversation out of a hat that's taboo or not discussed in giving opinion on it and I pitched it to all the main networks and like it had legs I guess, but it was just too controversial for everyone. So that kind of went to bed and then many years passed, like six or 7 years passed and podcasting started to become a thing and I always had in the back of my mind like I want to do something, I want to do something. But then I was working again and I was doing a health show and another radio show and the money was really good and it was stable and consistent and I just had a baby and then I realized it was more of the same shit, you know, still unfulfilled, not passionate. Uh just not me and I was like, where are you going to do it? And so I talked about it for so long and I was like fuck it, I am just going to figure it out. I have no idea. I sat down with my husband and I said, look, I don't know how much money this is going to cost or time, but I really need to do this thing because it's been nagging me now for like 15 years and he was like, okay, do it. So I bought the equipment I had in mind already the guests that was all thought out, but I didn't actually know how to do any of the podcast bit, the recording, the editing, the producing, the platform, how to host it. Like I didn't want to know like I didn't want to learn, I just wanted to make, I'd always been talent, I've been booked to be talent and I do the thing and then it goes out. So all of a sudden I'm wearing this different hat and I'm just like, oh my God, how do I do all of these things. And then I remember it was just before Covid hit and I was like, this is almost perfect timing because I'm literally forced to do this thing now and wheels were in motion and the best part of it was all the talent could do it because everyone was stuck at home, you know, like big guests like rafael Row from the netflix show Inside the world's toughest prison. So, I love this show, right? And I was like, I need him on, he would never say yes, but he was in lockdown. So of course, what was, what was he doing with his life? Nothing could talk to me. So, um it just kind of, it was a huge leap of faith. I didn't know if anyone would listen, I couldn't believe when I launched and someone listened or two people or 50 people and now we're two years down the track and it's this thing, it's this thing that we've reached a point where I believe I will never have to go back to mainstream media again. I have the freedom and the finance to not have to do that. Now, that's like remarkable to me, that's just like a dream. It is the dream, it's totally the dream. The dream, love that for you. I love that for me hey, but two years of not getting paid a cent, like I still haven't gotten paid next month will be my first paycheck, I think. Hell yeah, heck yeah, yes, yes. Let's go back to, you know, you were talking about how in the beginning you didn't know what to do, you didn't know what the process was, you were just kind of having to put on that hat and figure it out for anyone listening who is thinking about, you know, maybe launching a podcast or just starting something that they don't know how to do? What did you do? What were your steps to getting familiar, what was your process and workflow in those early days? Yeah, Well because I come from audio in radio, I had some contacts that did podcasting and things, so I had people to ask, but no one really has the time to tell you anything, you know, so Rachel Corbett who is frequently on, so she's now actually the head of nova podcasts, but at that time she was with Mamma Mia. I had done some podcasting with Mama Mia. They had booked me to do a series with them. So I met Rachel, she had a course called pod school, which is a really easy use a friendly course. If you want to start podcasting, I'd start there. But I called her, I was like, who, what do I do, who do? And she's like, I've done this, this is my course. So I kind of went to that as a resource and then I was like, who can because I hate editing once I record something, I never listen to it again. So I was like, who can do this for me. I was willing to put some money behind it. And so I actually went on, what's that facebook group? Like minded bitches drinking wine, love that group, shout out to jen and jane. Yeah, I put up an ad or something that was like looking for an audio producer or something like that. It was really kind of cryptic. There wasn't a lot of information there. And the first girl I think I found is still the girl that I have to this day, it was like, I also kind of believe in the woo woo of it all that once you put yourself out there, the universe will meet you and joe has been with me from the first day, she's got like 10 zillion clients now because of the referrals, because people like who did you use because no one knows, right? So she's doing really well for herself as well, but she's just incredibly skilled. I also probably may, well we made a lot of mistakes and paid for things. I didn't need to, like I got a real audio producer, like a composer, he was just too skilled for what I needed and so expensive. So he was only around like first season, wait, what is an audio composer? What is that? And how much he's a composer. So he he makes, he makes music okay? So his skill is act like he creates sound and music. But I said to him, hey, can you like edit? And he's like, yeah, I can edit, but it was like way under his skill set. So I was paying like, God, I want to say $1,000 an episode, not just for him but for the team. And he was like a lot of, most of it and I was like what the 10? It's a lot. It was definitely not starting rates, you know, like I definitely made a mistake that it wasn't starting. It was like but also like what are you doing idiot? You do not need him, but you don't know what, you don't know, you know? So I also got um someone in to develop the brand and the marketing because I wanted to go in and I wanted it to be, I knew that my peers were watching and I knew that it would be highly judged. So I wanted to come in really clear with who I am, what I am, what I'm, what service I am giving the world, what is the, you know, what is this? And she flushed all of that out with me. Um that was expensive too, but that we needed, and then there was all the other things like actual branding exercises, and I used a friend of a friend and I thought maybe mates rates, No, that's okay though. Um and we just had really strong logos and across the board branding and fonts and all of that jazz that you kind of need when you've got like a a brand that you want to develop over time. So I wanted all of those things to be really strong. And then I went out to pr and because I had so much experience in this world, I had a lot of contacts and I just drew on all of them, and I was like, I'm launching this thing and I'll give you the Clickbait and I'll give you the headlines, and I know what you want. Yes, you can talk about my husband if you want for a sentence, and like, I just knew how to sell it. So we went out and yeah, what happened was Apple, I think we were week six and I want to say up front, a lot of amazing things happened in the first season but a lot of scary things happened. So I got sued in the first season and that was a big come to jesus. Well it was a threat, it was a threat to be sued, they didn't follow through but I was served papers um an episode went out and the guest was talking about a person even though they were anonymous, this person who was a perpetrator believed that they were recognizable and had there were damages against them because of this episode and they proceeded to um yeah what are you doing that? Take the episode down or oh my God. So this is the weird thing about all of this, right? Like I didn't really have a legal, I had like release forms and things done up by a lawyer but I didn't, I wasn't prepared for someone to do this to me which is probably naive because of the content I create and has completely restructured the brand. But when this happened because it was a traumatic um it was linked to some of my own past trauma. I was so triggered and so in flight mode that I couldn't regulate or deal with this very well. So it was quite miraculous this heavenly angel from above who's a lawyer was like I will help you. I've got you let me sort this out and just dealt with it and I was like I am so scared like I don't know what to do. I think that they're going to come for me and my family and all of these things are like you are in a trauma response right now. I just want to really calm you down. I've got things covered. These are the things we're gonna do and we did have to take it down but I did give that person an opportunity to share their side and I also had to tell the guest in which this all unraveled that she was liable for the costs if we did go to court and I never want that. Yeah, it's really tricky because that's the release form that their um they have to cover all of that if someone comes after us because of what they've said. That's so wild. This is totally one of those like what you don't know, you don't know. I just, I would never have even thought that's something that you have to kind of consider. Yeah. Yeah. So it changed. We took it down. That's what they wanted and it was really disappointing and difficult for that guest, you know to have their truth removed and to be Disempowered. It was just an awful situation for everyone but parallel at this time was week six into the series one. Apple launched us into the banner ad. So you know what that is on when you open the app, you're on the main page on the front banner, everyone can see you, it was just the biggest deal. We shot to number one podcast in Australia. It's just like everything changed. What Kind of traffic do you get in that moment? Like on day one, like huge, huge, huge, huge, huge back then, I want to say maybe 10,000 or something, I could be very wrong, I'm terrible with numbers, but it was big. I went from like 5000, maybe 15,000 lessons on an app and they stayed. So as soon as they found me, they stayed, which was great, there wasn't a lot of churn and then mirror, I'll never forget her, she was Canadian based and headed up this kind of part of Apple, but you know like an apple, everyone's like untouchable, they're all just like words on a screen, you don't know anyone, it feels very like you can't connect, but she just was like, you are everything we believe in and we just champion you and we're going to do this and that and this and that and I was just like, you don't know for little on me what this means. So it changed everything, it changed everything, but at the same time as being sued, we had a really another dangerous episode coming out that week. So I got sued, say on the not so that's not even the right word. The papers were served like on a thursday and we had a hardcore episode about this troll on the Tuesday dropping and what happened was there had been some legal stuff with this woman that my lawyers like take it down, you can't do it because this is like we're already here, we need to now be really clear about what we put out, we just can't have these like suit every week and so we're scrambling to get the next episode live, that wasn't that episode. So the one that went up was so it's supposed to be a week six the troll and then week seven the troll hunter and it would make sense because we just had the troll on and we've spoken to the troll and then we're speaking to the troll hunter who had gone down this really dark path of like these insidious trolls that do these horrible things to people Anyway we had to remove the troll and just have the troll hunter out and that was the week we went to number one and was the episode I didn't want anyone to really hear because it wasn't my strong episode so it was like all of these things, all my strategy out the window, all of this like catch up all these like you can't plan for moments and what I realized in that was like we need to be on top of everything, not just legally but all the content, you can't depend on something just happening, we need to have like banked up so so many hard lessons in the first season, like Holy moly, like I just felt like can I even do this? You know, like I'm investing all my own money. Classic life, an entrepreneur, the rollercoaster of something really amazing happening smack bang next to something really shit. Yeah, and it was like such a, a real moment of like if you're going to do this, this isn't a hobby, like this is a career and you need to be all in like buckle up bitch like this is wild, especially with the topics you're talking about. Like I had recorded so much content and then I was going through the archives and I was like, I'm in serious danger you now because I had recorded two episodes with a family dynamic that was incredibly dangerous. And this person was currently in jail for this crime against this family and they had later told me that they didn't want to be anonymous so I couldn't protect their identity or mine. But this person in jail had access to really dangerous weapons and was in the Air Force and could, you know, like had real access to things and was quite senior and very angry and disturbed and had made quite a few threats to them and we had to turn around and say, would you be anonymous and they said no, he's not keeping us quiet anymore. And I have to respect that and be like, absolutely, this is your story and your truth. And you sing it from the rooftops. But I'm actually scared for my family. Like I don't I'm scared that if he hears this and I've given you a platform and he's mad that we could be in danger. So it just changed everything. You know, That moment changed everything the way that I record. Like, if there's current things in court, I don't touch them now, which is really sad because a lot of victims need that. But I just, you know, the well being of the family over, you know, overcomes everything. Yeah. How do you protect your mental health from these conversations? Which are so you know, they can be so triggering, there's so much depth to them and there's so much, you know, serious things that play mm It's so interesting. So, I didn't have a very good way of doing that at the start and I would carry that and I would be very moved and very upset and I didn't know how to rid myself of it. And then I started doing some woo woo shit. Like um and I'm not into like angels and stuff. That's never been my vibe. But I don't know why it was like, I was meditating and the signal of like the Archangel Michael Uriel Gabrielle and rafael. So I don't even know who they are what that means. But I was like, I call them in now and it's a heavy episode to hold the space and I kind of energetically protect myself and then I've got crystals and I've got a clearing spray so I really want what I know, this also sounds weird and we were, but like when I start a record, I open myself up to just be the vessel. Like I'm not really, it's not an agenda, it's not me. It's like whatever has to come through, this is the message will come through and so the conversation happens and then when it kind of closes, I kind of shut it off energetically as well and then get on with my life, you know, I've got two kids so and two other businesses, so it's kind of like you've got to keep it going, that's powerful. There's some episodes that like haunt me regardless of the energetic stuff. You know, like I just spoke to this beautiful beautiful boy man on monday who was violently Raped at eight by a grown man. And you know, it was a very explicit episode and you know, I'm thinking about him and I'm thinking about Children in that situation currently and you know, like it's in it's in you, I mean it's in me anyway, I think of those things anyway all the time, so it's just I guess another layer of understanding and empathy, you know? Yeah. Gosh wow, that is intense and a lot. I'm going to switch to a totally different topic and we're gonna move away from that for the moment. If you're a small business owner and you manage your own fulfillment, you've probably heard of the Dymo label printer. It's the gold star for e commerce store owners and they've just released their label writer five series with new software that's easy to install and use giving you more control over your printing than ever before. This printer will streamline your operations and print labels in precise quantities with ease and faster than ever. And with the new software you can keep track of the size type and number of remaining at a glance reducing misprints and alerting you when it's time to change the label roll. You'll also be able to save money with no need for expensive ink or toner, which also means less waste as well as being made from sustainable materials. This is Deimos most impressive label writer model yet and we can't wait to hear about the impact it can have on your business. You can pick one up from your local office supply store or learn more at Dymo online dot com dot au Let's talk about more of the kind of business model to what you're building and kind of how you were thinking about it in the beginning, verse how it actually is now and how you were thinking about like monetization and whether this was going to be, you know, in the beginning, was it just an outlet or were you like, no, this is a business from the get go and how you've kind of built your business model. What does that look like? I think it always had a element of being multimedia. So I've always seen it being a tv show and I know exactly what it is. We've pitched it actually to production companies here in Australia, I managed by RGM, so they went to market with it and it was kind of in pre production stages with somebody and then it fell through which I had no attachment to because I'm so incredibly overwhelmed at the moment. So it just, for me it didn't feel like the right time. I just didn't have the time to do that right now, but that is definitely on the horizon. I see that maybe though in like five or 10 years when the kids are in school and I can, I feel okay going and doing that because it's gonna be pretty hardcore, it's going to be so cool. The concept so called, it's very louis through, you know, he's like, my God, I saw him talk the other day, I was being like, in person and obviously like, please sing the song, please sing that somebody only mentioned it. I know, and I like hate that song. I'm like poor thing because I know that episode and I was like holy sh it he's just, he's become such a gen z meme. He is and I just love him, but not for that. He's so funny, he's so funny, every sentence I was cackling, he just opened his mouth and he's funny, he's just so curiously brilliant and I just love him. But we digress. So there is that element that I always knew would happen. And then I was like always thinking why the car podcast free, like it's so fucked. And especially for someone like me, that monetizing can be really tricky because you know, we're talking about, I don't know, a functioning heroin addict or a girl that was gang raped at 14, like, you know, stengel's or something isn't gonna want to put an ad in there that became tricky and also the model of sponsoring podcasts at the moment, especially in Australia is still as a marketing exercise. Not quite the thing, it's not done as much as it should be. They don't get the value as much yet. You know, they're still on social media because half of my bread and butter is in social media and doing ads that way through Zoe marshall stuff. So I get, I see them, I see them going, we want this, we want to see the engagement, we want to see the R. O. I. Whereas in podcasting we don't have the click throughs and things like that, but we have the ears and if I'm going 80,000 people are going to hear at all the way through because I'm going to write it in a authentic way where I'm endorsing it in something and it is always something I believe in, why would you not do that? They don't even know the ad happened, we're back into the content before, they've even like, and it's in there and it was really easy if I could sell it to the client, but I, my time, I didn't have the time to do the pitch and to do it all. So it was tricky to sell and I was like, subs, you know, europe does subs well America does subs well why have we not done subs? And it was ticking away in the back of my mind, I was like, how the hell do I even do that? And I was at a co work space, I kind of like done a lot of outreach to my instagram, like who does this? And they'd sent through different businesses and I was taking a couple of meetings and then so this co workspace and spoke to the owner and she was like, I've got the girl for you and I was like, well you better hurry because I'm about to employ these other people like, like this afternoon and we got on a call and it was Tash from word of Mouth media who's a friend of yours and she's so great, we just like, it was super weird, like we just connected and we had mutual friends but had never met and she knew the show and just understood the language and where I was playing in the ballpark, I was playing in and had done a lot of this but was also female and owned her own business and super passionate but hadn't done exactly what I was doing, so I think she found it interesting to do this with me and so I was like, I can't even afford you, but let's do it and we started working together and she's very business, like I didn't even know what a KPI is or whatever, she had all of these words and you know, we're gonna circle back in all of these terms and not not in my remit and you know, it's like, what are these things anyway? And we ended up having kind of these opportunities come in at like, I'm just this divine timing in this universal ship is just so true. It was like moments of like Apple, remember I told you about Mirror at the start, she left and then I was brokenhearted, she's like, I'm gonna pass you on to Jonathan. I was about to give birth to my second baby when this transition happened, I was like, I got a bit of a relationship with Jonathan, johnny who is Jonathan, lost him in my, lost him in my emails, I was like, what Jonathan's email can't find my baby, I'm in the midst of it all, We really got to get onto this and then we're just about to launch subs on Patreon two days before this girl slides into my inbox. Hey, I'm kate, I love the podcast, can we have a conversation about subs from Apple? And I was like, okay, because I just got Jonathan to cc me into an email with you and I just emailed you and she's like holy ship because it was maybe two hours in between these two emails. She was like, oh my God, I just realized that was really weird. It was super weird and I was like, we gotta talk because I'm launching in two days, get on the phone on the zoom and she's just like launch exclusively with us. And Tash was like, this has to look good, you know, because why would we, you know, we're giving you a percentage because I think Apple subs, I don't know, 2030% We've got this really strong pr plan, really strong strategy. Like why why would we? And I won't be able to tell you all the ins and outs because she'll kill me because it's confidential. But she gave us an opportunity to amplify again and it was something, it was a risk. It was definitely a calculated risk. We did not know if it would be worth it, especially because it's exclusive to Apple, we're cutting out a chunk of our audience that android uses, but it was, it was incredible and it was incredible because it wasn't just like me doing something brand new, Tash was doing something brand new and kate was doing something brand new, it was like we were all so invested in this succeeding and it was like, I really needed strong women that believed in this and believed in me because I didn't know if one person would pay, I was like, and that was the whole thing, like I've given two years of this, my labor, my love, my time, my energy, my trauma, my time away from my kids, all of it and I hope that the audience trusts me enough to know that I would give them something with painful and then that launched and we had a goal for the month and we hit it in three days and then we had our annual goal and we hit that in with just, it's been six weeks. That's amazing. Congrats, which means I can pay myself when I told you I can pay the money has not hit the bank and I should be able to, I should be able to pay myself yeah and and you know, this is more than anything. It's not, I know this sounds so wanke because obviously we've got to pay the bills, it's not about the financial dollars in the account, it's the value that someone thinks I'm worth it, you know, or they think the podcast is worth it. So I had this incredible DM from this woman that was like, hey times are really tough and my husband sat down with me, we're in rural Queensland. And he said to me, we've got to make some cuts to the budget, you know? And she was like, I get it, I get it. You know, these are all the things that we can do and the deep, I'm going to give up the deepest subscription and he was like, absolutely not. He goes, it's your one thing. You're a mom to three babies. You're at home all day. You have nothing for yourself. This is your thing, the way that it lights you up, the conversations that we have, the excitement, you get the meaning it brings you. He goes, we can afford A dollar 25 a week for you to get this thing. And I was just like, wow God, not only not, not only does she said, but he sees the value for her. I was like, I was in tears. I was like, this is the most because you know, ship is real and it is tough out there and we're getting subscription fatigue and for them to kind of marry them all up and go, you know what? No, for a dollar or four bucks a month, I'm going to get, I'm going to feel and I'm going to get connected and I'm going to learn and I'm going to challenge myself like all of those things, which is the goal. They go, I value that. That was like for me, oh, that's it, you know? That's it. Yeah, that's amazing For the actual content that you put on there. So you have the subscription, it's a monthly subscription. So $4 something a month you pay for 99 99 a month. What do those people get? Like, what's the offer get? So this is the thing, right? Because obviously subs is out there, people are charging that, that's like a kind of normal monthly cost and I was like, but we need to exceed that. So we have our free stuff every week, right? But on top of that, what is everyone doing? So they're doing ad free. Cool, that's not so exciting, they're doing um maybe uncut episodes, an early release, that's it. And I was like, Would I pay $5 for that? No, I'll just skip the ad or I'll just, do you know what I mean? So I was like, so what is going to make it? I mean, the uncut thing, I kind of like, that's probably the biggest draw card, but I was like, I want to hear things but no one else can hear only hear exclusive content, not just from guests, but I want to hear them from because a lot of people were obsessed with my trauma. So in the intro, it says a lot of traumatic things happened to me in my early twenties and then I became fascinated. So they hear this every week and they're like, so what happened to you? And I never made it about me? And so I was like, okay, you guys want to know some things, this is where you can hear it and why I feel comfortable telling you is because I know you get me. So I've built up enough trust with you in two years, you know, I can hold the space for others now, you can hold the space for me. So my experience with domestic violence was the one we launched with on the deeper. Because then I set the tone of where we're going with this. This is this is a secret society, this is a community now. And I'm telling things to you that I've never told some of my best friends, but I've never told some of my family or my husband, this is our thing. And so it's not me often, but when it is, it's like me and my husband and our therapist who we see why we see them me and seeing a trauma clearer and some of the worship that I've done to heal trauma because we've got so much trauma topic covered. A lot of people want to know access to how we deal with trauma or how I've dealt with it. So I give them access to these people and then other parts of the content are exclusives or too explicit to be on the normal, free to air. So for example the gigolo who was on the free to air, which was just about who he is and his clientele and his job. We then went into how do you lick pussy the best way? How do you the best way? Tell me all of your tricks so that men and women can learn from a gigolo. That's cool. That's a great content, like offering to have as part of the secret society. Yeah, it's very different. So it makes sense. It makes sense in the umbrella, but it is way more, I guess explicit and it's way more at times challenging for you to listen to or for you to come to terms with. And then there's elements of it that is, you know, me confessing things, you know, there's things about me that I've never shared to mainstream media, which I'm no fool, they can pay the full box and get it and put on the Daily Mail for sure, But I'm willing to do that, that's, you know, I thought that through. But I'm also just willing to share parts of myself now that if that's of interest to the listener that they can access, wow, that is so interesting. It's it's interesting to me, it's like you're able to a create this thing that's really intense and just so I don't even have the terminology because I don't know how to say how intense it is and how intense it sounds, but this kind of crazy, deep thing, but also have it as a business, but not an icky way, like in a really authentic, this is the most important thing, right? So we have just signed with a cast to monetize us because I just didn't have the time or the bandwidth to do that and they're amazing and Jordan has been on me for two years like love jordans, I just spoke to her recently, so so it was, it was nice to go full circle with her and give her, you know, I said it's like we've been dating a really long time and now I've just put out so um they are really excited and really passionate and I needed them to do that to work hard for this because we cannot, there are episodes that no ad can be an ever, you know, there's an episode with a widow whose husband died in front of her on the bathroom floor, mouthful of vomit while she was giving CPR, there is no place in that for an ad. None. So there's also the way you do ads, you know, is so specific. I hope that the landscape of podcasting respects that enough now that we can do that and they go bitch needs to make a dollar so we can keep listening. But if I'm going to pay the sub, I don't have to get any ads at all and I get all this extra stuff. My thing just as a content creator whether it's on instagram with clients or on podcasting is to always exceed expectation, you know, to over deliver. So I feel like with the data, everyone feels it's worth, it's worth the money and that no one has said it hasn't been, everyone's just like holy sh it girl, give it to me, you know, 100%. Yeah. What are your kind of like when you look back your key kind of learnings that you can share as advice for people out there who might have stories to tell or want to start a podcast or want to jump into something that maybe they had been thinking, oh, this is, you know, two out there. Mm I think the first thing that's really important and I've spoken to some, a couple of other podcasters and we saw this influx of podcasting through covid, right? Like people podcasting that really don't need to have a voice or a platform at all. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but I think it's really important to go, what is it that I want to say or want to share? You know, um, do I need to take up space in this area because it is saturated, Super duper saturated first thing because you're wasting your time. Like if you're just doing it and you're not really passionate and you're not all in, don't just don't do it. Like go for lunch, it's so much more fun, you know, but if you feel like there is something that is too much or too controversial or whatever. I would say podcasting or Youtube ng would be the best outlet for you to have full creative control. I would steer you away from signing and like a castle kill me for saying this. But don't sign with any production houses, don't give away your I. P. Or your content ever, ever, ever. It doesn't matter if you're making no money for however long don't succumb to the dollar because you will lose all control. You just will. And I've had every single production house try and buy us, you know, and that's been great. Like, um, but no, never, never ever. What does that look like? If someone is coming to you to be like, well they're just, they, they pitch to you and they say, well, you know, are you open to having a conversation about what this would look like being apart. They call it a partnership, but it's not, they own half. Once you sign that contract, you know, if you're not careful. So, and once that happens, they then have big ideas on, on how the content changes and shifts and becomes more commercial. Yeah, totally. It's all about the dollars and you don't ever want to be a slave to the dollar because then the content

So question number one, what's your, why? Why are you doing this every single day? I think it's my wine life. It's not just my wine work and I was talking about this last night with my bestie is connection. So I feel wholehearted and passionate and of service when I am connected to others or are fostering connections. So that is my why in life and that is I guess the why of the deep is people feel yeah, connected to something or someone I think impacts just really important to have as part of your life in whatever business you're doing or whatever you're doing in your community. If you have impact, it helps with that feeling of more fulfillment and contentment and those things that you can struggle with if you don't have it? I love that question. Number two is what's been your favorite marketing moment so far for the show. Always the banner, always the apple banner. The apple banner is the most exciting moment for anyone being number one in Australia was pretty epic. Actually We are top five in the top, not top five, we are in the top five, sub A N. Z. And we're top 25 worldwide. So that's fun too. Is that a marketing thing? I don't know. Yeah. Hell yeah, that's great. Cool. Yeah, I love that view. That's fun. That's fun question. Number three, what is your go to resource when it comes to business. If you have to think about like a podcast book. Great answer great answer. Tasha is my one stop shop, like I, I don't think anyone will ever like, I will eventually need to just take her and take her away and be all mine, she probably can't, but I know I need her, I need her, I seriously cannot function without her and her thoughts and input and ideas. I just need to be talented, she needs to be business, that makes sense. It makes so much sense. I sent her a message a couple of days ago just being like, I just need you to know how grateful I am to you, how grateful I am for your time and like, you know, just she's such a generous soul with everything, she's such an amazing and I think that's something that is like we're all women team, that's um even my accountant, my lawyer, everyone is female that we work with and I think it's really intentional to have these fucking strong, smart, audacious women on your team. You need those people on your team. Absolutely. Amen. Question number four is how do you win the day? What are your am or pm rituals and habits that keep you feeling happy and successful and motivated. You're rubbing your face. Oh my God, I don't win any days. I don't win, I'm not winning. Oh my God, I have no idea winning the day, winning the day. Do you know what I take and I win the day is I take my homeopathic, sleep drops at night four of them and I do a breathing exercise and I try and just get good sleep if I can sleep well because I am a slave to my ambition flex. Mommy taught me that and I am a slave to my Children, which I love, but I have no time anywhere for anything so that I need to address this is a bit of a come to jesus moment. But winning the day, I'd like to win a day. I'm wearing a watch that keeps buzzing and telling me to walk and move. That's what it's doing. I feel like winning the day to me is like lots of small moments that just bring you joy in that small moment. It's not like one specific thing, but it's like those tiny things like for me it's like getting the sleep that's definitely winning the day or like having you know just the green juice that I love, that if I had that every day, that would be amazing. But I don't have it every day so that therefore I'm kind of missing that small joy. Do you know what is amazing that I'm truly grateful for is being in a privileged position to be with my babies and work like Yes, I'm still working now and at 7, 10 and I've been working since seven a.m. But in her waking hours when she's not napping. I get her up from her nap, I give her breakfast, I cuddle her, I play with her. Yes. I might need to answer a couple of emails while she plays something else. But that's a privilege. And that makes me feel like I'm winning something that I can have the accessibility to do that and work. Yes, absolutely. That's amazing. Question. Number five is, and I think we might have covered this, but I'm gonna ask it again, what's the worst money you've spent in business? And how much did it cost you your worst money mistake? I feel bad saying that about him. He was so great. It was just a just too much. You know, I think sometimes we jump to like, you think that there's an answer and but you don't have like the right kind of, it's just not the right match. And so you think it's going to be the right match. But then when you get into it, you're like wrong and then you have paid too much and then, or you're on a contract and then I couldn't get out, but he's a sweetheart, love him. Just too overqualified and too much money. Question # six. Last question. I'm sure you've got lots of these. What is just a crazy story, good or bad that you've had from this journey. Crazy story. I mean, they're all like, that's the job, right? The job is fucking crazy. But like if it was like a wow moment, it would be, there's a really fancy restaurant here called fred's and I went there when we launched No, no, when we got to number one, it was still that first season and the waitress because I was still very new. The waitress was like, I love your podcast, we all love your podcast here and I was like someone real listens because usually it's just numbers and I know that's a very humble, low key moment, but it was like a real life person telling me they love it. That was pretty cool. I feel like that thrill also just never goes away right when someone pops into your inbox or your D. M and just shares a tiny little thing of how it's impacted them or their day or their business or their life and you're like, this will never get old. Someone saying those words to you will never get old. I think probably, you know, and that is such a good point that you bring up because that is a crazy thing that happens all the time is the dems are you know pumping you can imagine. But those moments of, I grew up religious, I had a huge judgment on this on a trans issue. It changed the way I see the world change the conversations I'm having with my family members changes the way I'm raising my kids like that. I probably take that for granted a little bit like that's pretty fucking wild and it's I probably take it, I don't take it for granted. I think I can't handle it. Sorry, it's the other way around. Like it's too much for my little heart to bear that. That I kind of just skim past those ones because it's like that's crazy. That's crazy. That is seriously crazy. That's that's impact, that's impact. I have loved this. This was so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I can't wait to meet you, I can't wait to meet you too. Everyone needs to go check out your podcast immediately. Subscribe if I haven't scared them. If I haven't scared them off. Yeah you'll get a great um blow by blow that's coming up with our sex worker, not our sex who don't own her, but there's great content coming up. So if you want to know how to give like the best blowjob or the best kind of lingus amongst other things. You know, come to the deeper, Come to the deeper everyone should go there that this was so fun. Thank you so much. So I'm so excited to meet you soon. Thank you so much.



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