Today I’m chatting to Sarah Ribner, the Founder of PiperWai.
PiperWai is redefining everyday hygiene essentials-- starting with the first natural deodorant that uses activated charcoal to neutralize odor and absorb wetness. PiperWai products are consciously packaged and certified vegan, cruelty-free, and don’t contain common pollutants or toxic ingredients that harm the environment or our bodies.
In this episode we’re covering the struggles that come with creating a truly sustainable brand and what the downsides can be when it comes to things like packaging, the levers for growth in the beginning of building the brand that still work to this day and what can go wrong if your operations aren’t set up when you go on SharkTank.
Please note, this transcript has been copy pasted without the lovely touch of a human editor. Please expect some typos!
Sure. So my name is Sarah and I grew up in Philly and I come from a mixed race, mixed religion background and I grew up trying all sorts of different skincare products because I've been told my entire life that the products that I use or for everybody, that's how they were marketed. And I grew up trying to find things that worked for my skin, for my hair and I experienced all kinds of things for my hair falling out to rashes or breakouts and I became very interested in environmental factors and how that impacted my health and wellness. So after graduating college I studied urban studies and worked a little bit in real estate and on the side became very interested in alternative wellness, health and wellness and understanding environmental factors.
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So sort of, I went on my own personal journey and in that process I couldn't find a good natural deodorant. So that's what led me to piper wide, I saw a huge white space in the market, couldn't find a good one that worked. It was one of the most, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous conventional products, given the types of ingredients that are in conventional deodorant. And it just led to a very long personal journey that ultimately led me to wanting to start a brand around this formula that I was using with the childhood friend. And that was back in 2014 before you see natural deodorant everywhere now. So we're, you know, one of the first on the market and the product is made with activated charcoal, which is super absorbent as you can see. It's great. But it rubs in completely clear and it's made with skin conditioning ingredients. It's gender neutral. It's for all ages. It's also made with an essential oil blend that helps to neutralize odor and work with the ecosystem under your armpits to cover up odor. So that's what I've been doing and were predominantly an e commerce space company.
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Amazing! And I think I also read your packaging is from recycled ocean plastic, Is that right? Yeah. So we used to be in glass which is at the time when we launched was kind of the gold standard for recyclable packaging and we came to realize that it's very environmentally burdensome in the production process, but it's also really heavy to ship. And of course a lot of glass that is used in the U. S. From suppliers is all made abroad. So we went on a very long journey of trying to figure out how can we be more sustainable as a company and after seeing how much greenwashing is happening in the industry, we talked to all sorts of suppliers, consultants fault leaders, nonprofits and came up with the idea that recycled ocean plastic were essentially supporting suppliers that are paying fishermen fair wages to clean coastlines, oceans and waterways that lead into ocean. So we're helping to support this initiative, but they're also taking that plastic and repurposing it into all sorts of things, whether it's packaging or jewelry, furniture.
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So they're really giving this plastic a 2nd, 3rd infinite life in some cases. And yeah, it's something that is really near and dear to our brand because it was a long process and you know, we finally launched it and february of this year actually. Ah congrats, that's super cool. How interesting are there any like frustrations or sacrifices you have to make when you choose a choice like that? And I'm thinking along the lines of, you know, cost isn't more expensive, is their limitations with design? Like what it looks like? Are there any negatives to choosing that path? Yes, cost is a huge barrier, especially for a small brand because the process specifically for this type of packaging is that they have to collect the plastic. So they're paying the fishermen wages, then they have to sort it clean it and then it goes through this compounding process. So there's sort of more steps along the way versus just virgin plastic. And even though there are more steps, it's actually reducing energy usage, water usage.
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It's reducing basically the environmental burden all around and it's actually creating six times more jobs than incinerating and you know, for any sort of plastic that actually gets recycled. So overall the process is less environmentally burdensome, but the cost is definitely higher. So that's definitely a huge barrier. But yeah, I think as more brands start to go down the path of sustainability, which we're seeing a lot, there will be more suppliers that go down this path and eventually, hopefully that will make it more accessible. But that was definitely one of the biggest barriers and also just availability that sometimes we have to wait longer for packaging. It's a longer process because there are more steps involved. But ultimately just for us, it takes a lot more planning and a lot more time and a lot more forethought in the process. Mm totally, wow, that's super cool. I want to rewind back to the very beginning because I got a bit ahead of myself here. So we're talking 2014, you're making these products at home.
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When do you actually think, Hey, I'm going to turn this into a business and I'm going to start selling these to other people. It was kind of serendipitous because I kept in my own research, I kept seeing the same theme and it was following these green beauty bloggers and I was reading different green beauty publications. And I even went to an early talk by an early wellness e commerce marketplace and everyone just kept saying they can't find a good natural dealer and I just kept hearing this theme over and over again and it seemed to be like a really hot topic and a very personal topic because of course you know if it fails it's something that other people can notice and your underarm odor is also linked to so many different types of health indicators. So it just seemed like a really sensitive topic. And when I started using this formula that was working for us and for friends and different family members, I said I know that there is a white space in the market. I think this should be a brand. I think we should bring this out to the masses and really start something with it.
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And sure enough I had this whole list of the same publications and bloggers and influencers that I was following. I had this whole list and went right back to them and said actually I have a formula, you should try it and those are some of our early sales because once we sent out samples and they started posting about it and the website was up. That's how we got our first customers wow. And so at this time I you still kind of making it yourself in in your kitchen or had you already started to find a manufacturer to actually invest capital and turn this into a brand. So still making it, it was about a year and a half of handcrafting. So basically his orders came in, they were handcrafted and it ended up really just taking away time from anything else in the business. And so I applied for shark tank about a year and a half into the business. So it wasn't really until that point that we said, okay, we really need a manufacturer in case this gets big, there's no way we can continue handcrafting.
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So I wouldn't recommend doing it as long as we did. But it was a good way to to almost like establish a really personal connection with the formula because you know exactly what goes into making it and how labor intensive it is. And you understand the formula like inside and out. Does the recipe look the same today as what it did back then? Or has it changed significantly? It's exactly the same. And we get this question from customers all the time because natural doesn't use artificial stabilizer. So sometimes, especially when we took it out to manufacturers and they start producing in higher and higher volume, it would sort of change the final output the way it looked or like little things would get tweaked and it took a long time to find the right partners that could do it at scale consistently the same way. And we get that question all the time. And we also have new products now. But the original formula is the exact same that it was in the beginning. That's amazing. Love that I want to ask you about the capital, you needed to kind of get started, what was the investment from your perspective or from yourself to actually bring the brand to life.
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So it was $2,000 and the reason it was so small and you see brands going out and raising millions today and the reason it was so small is that we were just doing everything, even handcrafting the product, I think a lot of friends will need now to go out to invest in inventory teams, advertising everything we did was just completely organic. So from, you know that early press list that I had and just going out to people that we knew were looking for a product like this to handcrafting the product to having absolutely no overhead, no office or team kind of doing everything, just learning as we go, that's what kept the costs so low, but it also kind of a double edged sword because it need it really easy to start the brand and get off the ground. But it was also really hard, once we wanted to become a large brand and actually start selling in higher volume because we didn't have the infrastructure, so once that opportunity came and I can get into that story later, but once that opportunity came around, we didn't have the infrastructure to actually meet that demand.
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So it was kind of like if I could do it again, I think maybe I would suggest, you know, finding those partners that can bring in the capital sooner and help you build that infrastructure and that foundation a lot earlier if you know that your goal is to become a larger brand. So you know, so you're not caught with sort of in our situation where that opportunity came around and we weren't really able to keep up with the demand ones. That opportunity arrived totally. And I definitely want to get into the shark tank experience, but I still want to backtrack to those early days and keep on that same pathway. You said that you were sending out samples to the pR list that you had and the connections that you've already made. How else were you kind of growing the business in those early days when it came to marketing and getting the word out there. Um, subscription boxes were huge in the early days because the product was considered niche. So it's still the original formula, we have it in a stick form now, but it's always been a cream as the original formula. So you have to rub it into your armpits. And yeah, it was considered niche. And also like I said, natural deodorant just wasn't known at the time and it wasn't known for being effective.
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So we had to prove to people that it worked with subscription boxes. We were able to get it out to thousands of people and then even the people who didn't physically try it, we could send out coupon codes, marketing mailers surveys. That was actually some of our early surveys and kind of focus groups were basically through subscription boxes and friends and family. So that was huge for us. And then of course at the time, like influencer marketing wasn't what it is today. So going to, I guess what you could consider influencers on social media at the time. They were very like organic relationships. They really, they wanted product and they had highly engaged followers but not that many followers and then trade shows. So really just getting the word out in person as much as possible. And then we also worked a little bit with boutiques, so boutiques that we're willing to take a chance on a small brand, purchase our product and resell in like general stores, fitness studios and even whole foods took a chance on us early on. So that was a huge tools to the business in the first year.
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Mm I bet I love to talk about the key moments of growth and obviously shark tank is one of those key moments for you. Are you able to share kind of the before and after what it looks like in terms of, you know, it was early on, you say it was a year into the business. Are we talking 2015 by the way? Or 2016 at this point? Um it was the end of 2015, End of 2015 So are you able to share kind of like any numbers around revenue that you were doing before the show and where you were painting the picture of what the brand was versus what happened after you went on shark tank and what the impact of something like that is? Yeah, by the time we pitched they asked us our revenue, I believe it was 130,000 at the time and that was a year and a half into the business. And at that point we were still handcrafting and still doing nothing. Very bootstrapped what happened after. So when we went on, they said the same thing that, okay, it's a niche product, Nobody knows what natural deodorant is. It's probably going to sell 10,000 units in the first few months after airing.
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My gut feeling was that we needed to boost our manufacturing. So we needed maybe one or two manufacturers and a backup manufacturer, We went to one early on that said they were ready, you know, if and when we got the orders. So we figured, OK, 10,000 it's a small manufacturer that they can handle, that my gut feeling was that we probably would not be ready and we ended up selling like 120,000 units in like several weeks following the episode and we couldn't fulfill. And it was like it just kept spiraling to the point where we were refunding orders and we were getting what we could out but we kept being so we were told from our early manufacturing partner once you have the orders maybe we can do higher volume. So we said okay we have the orders but it just happened a lot faster than we expected and they said, well that's too bad. You know, we have other clients we have to service, we can't get the materials that fast.
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This was like at the end of the year so holidays were shutting down suppliers And we had no team really. So in the early days like I think I answered at least 10,000 different emails. I was just like copying and pasting any like generic questions and then questions about orders just refunding or the people who are willing to wait giving them coupon codes until we were finally able to get a team. Our first hires were customer service. So yeah, I would say the weeks following were pretty hectic. And then eventually we on boarded sort of backup manufacturer. But by then it was like we just kept getting rerun. So then every time we had a rerun we were even more in the hole and we had the message on our website we said we don't know exactly when we can get the products in. So yeah, I think it was like that gut feeling that I ignored. It was like I don't think that 10,000 is going to be enough and I don't think this is the right partner, but I think when you're just thrown into something like when you're using media to grow your business, you have no idea what the outcome is going to be and yeah, like we had people all around us saying that it would be the exact opposite of what it was.
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So you just, you never know what the response is going to be when you're using media to grow a start up, wow. Yeah, I mean super validation for you, you really struck a nerve on what the product is, what the market wanted. But I guess that must have been like such a bittersweet time because on the one hand you're thriving and you have a million people like wanting your product and trying to pay you money and give you money and then on the other hand you just can't keep up, that must have been such a challenge. How did you get through it? I burn out a couple of times because the business side of me, the one, you know, like I said, I wanted to create a company around it. I want I wanted this to be a brand. That part of me was like this is our moment, we have to do it and we have to find a way to get the products out but then the reality was, well that's just not where we are, We don't have that infrastructure. So yeah, I think it was definitely a struggle of trying to find that acceptance. But then also when you have all the outside noise from customers and reruns and like just really trying to like run to get everything together, get the right manufacturing partners in place, higher the team.
00:20:05Edit So you're not doing customer service emails. It was harder to kind of think strategically in long term, it was just like were thrown into it and you just got to go and do your best. So part of me was like, I wish we were doing better, I wish we were like keeping up and then the other part of me was like, okay, I have to accept where we are, this is the situation, we have to just you know, accept it as it is. So it's just like a very conflicting time. Yeah, wow, that's really like a sink or swim moment. How long did it take for you to actually sort out everything and get onto a pathway where you were like, okay, I can take a breath. Things are working now, everything is set up, The infrastructure is here. We are good to go. I think it actually wasn't until a couple of years ago, so we didn't realize at the time that our product is very difficult to make and that was probably one of the things that having started the way we started, you know, if we had months or years of interviewing partners and understanding that the product is very hard to scale in a cosmetic or industrial manufacturer? Like that's something that we could have prepared for early on.
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But you know, we've expanded into new products. Since then, we've had no issues. Manufacturing are additional products. We've been able to build a team around the brand. But really that core product, that was something that took a very long time to find the right partners. And then of course with Covid last year, so that also disrupted supply chains, no matter how strong of a company you are. So I really think it wasn't until the last couple of years of building relationships, understanding that landscape a lot better and really kind of understanding what goes into, I guess I'll call it co packing or industrial manufacturing, another correct term. But really understanding what goes into that, I would say it really wasn't until a couple of years ago that I felt like we hit our stride. Mm Gosh, that's so interesting because I imagine, you know, as a new brand, you're just thinking, yep, get on there and then we sort everything out and then in reality you do really need to be prepared and you really do need a plan of how to succeed and thrive after the show airs and continually three runs go to air, you were offered a deal on the show and in the end you guys didn't end up going through with it.
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Are you able to share anything about that experience? Like why you wouldn't take a deal afterwards? Yeah. So we saw a study that I think Forbes did this study 70% of those deals don't actually go, through Wow. Part of the reason is that you only have like 45 minutes to an hour. Um think the longest pitch was four hours in shark tank history. So you don't have a lot of time and when most of the due diligence is happening after the episode. So that's why a lot of them don't close things change as you're having conversations, things maybe drag on or maybe like the deal terms change. Like anything can change in that time period. So I think that's why a lot of them don't go through because what you see on shark tank is such a small part of that entire negotiation process. Right? That's so interesting. I didn't know that about the deals. I mean I also guess it makes sense when you're thinking about what the show's impact can be for a small brand or a brand in general where maybe you don't need the capital that they're going to invest after all kind of thing.
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That's a really interesting insight. Yeah, it's like so many different scenarios and that was a study a couple years ago? I don't know how it's changed now So cool to know that since then, since the shark tank experience and since you found your stride and got back into the rhythm and that kind of thing, what kind of marketing has evolved for you that's really driving your growth now. And what's working for you guys at the moment, interestingly still subscription boxes and sampling. It's as big of a market as natural deodorant is now, I think there's still pockets of areas in our country around the world, like different markets that still haven't really adopted this type of product. And you know, I think there's still a lot of skeptics, like can it really work? Like is it going to stand up to conventional deodorant? Um you know, why isn't it in any purse sprint? How do you apply it? Like these are questions we get all the time. And so really just getting people to try the product in proving to them that it works as well as we say it works and that it is an incredible product that's been consistently one of our best.
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And then also we've done a lot of organic press. And just even since the early days, like they said, I had like an excel sheet that I would just reach out to different editors and today, you know, since then we've worked with various freelance publicist, but a lot of our press has been organic or keeping an eye out for, you know, different press opportunities. There's like different databases where editors will ask for recommendations or they'll ask for different recommendations to, you know, they'll have a specific topic or they're looking for a certain type of brands. So we always keep an eye out for these organic opportunities. And actually we just landed invoked twice in the last month and that was completely organic. And it really, I think it's a testament to the product. So it really just also comes down to having a great product and the great brand. But yeah, it's I think that organic like that relationship building, whether it's with influencer networks. I've seen brands that have hundreds, thousands of influencers in their network and they have a really strong relationship with these influencers and they're the first to know about new products or they might do retreats with them or they might do different types of promotions and other incentives.
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I think a lot of it comes down to those relationships and of course having a great product because then the product needs to be able to sell itself. Mm So, true, congrats on the vogue cover coverage rather that so now cover yet coverage coverage, That's what I mean. Thank you. When you say sampling what is a specific sampling strategy as an example outside of the subscription boxes. Can you dig a little deeper and help me understand what that specifically means? Yeah, it could be anything from a gift with purchase. So sampling through your own site. We have retail partners that do their own subscription box program. So we'll also sample, they might throw it into an order like you know, someone is interested in an adjacent category and they'll send in sample of our product also. I mean not so much now because of the past year, but when we did in person sampling so at events um that was a huge one because you have just sometimes thousands of people in the same place and very like minded people looking for the same general types of brands.
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Um Yeah, so I think that there's a bunch of different ways and I've also seen brands, we haven't done this, I've seen brand sample in Ubers and rideshare. So there was like these little vending machines. What? Oh my god, I've never seen that. Yeah, it's really cool. Um I actually just got my first Uber with the vending machine the other day but but where's the vending machine? What do you mean? Yeah, it's like a little box like in the middle of both front seats. And they'll say like you can download the app if you fill out a survey, given your email, get a free sample or if you want a deluxe sample you have to pay for it through that, wow. How much does it cost to get placement in that kind of Uber situation? I mean like I said we haven't done it yet, but I think so it's the cost of the sample and then there's I guess if you're selling the samples and there's probably one relationship versus like if you're getting free samples in exchange for data, I'm not sure the exact price.
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But yeah, I was shocked when I got my first Uber with it. So I was like, I actually, there are some things I need in this vending machine, wow, that's so cool. I'm excited for when that situation hits London. It's definitely not here yet. I have not seen that. Where is the business today? And what does the future look like? Say, over the next couple of months to next year kind of vibe. Yeah. I mean, we've been on this huge sustainability soul searching journey, which it took, I think it took a lot longer than I expected because as we started to research everything that I thought was sustainable, wasn't actually sustainable. And oh my God, Yeah, so like, so we thought that paper was like the industry standard right now for sustainability. And then we find out that if you're not using, for example, fsc like certified wood, I mean you're essentially using virgin wood and trees. And then also the manufacturing takes so much water and water and any production process right now is just incredibly burdensome.
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And so that was my initial reaction was like papers, the standard and as I actually learn about what happens at the start of life at the like the production and and eventually even into recycling, if it's oil stained, it can't be recycled, which is a huge issue with consumer products, especially a product like ours that uses oils. If it's overheated, it could leak onto the paper and then all of a sudden it's not recyclable. So it's little things like, you know, once we start researching, we realized this is going to be a much bigger journey than we expected. And so yeah, so that's kind of where we're at in the business, was learning researching understanding what sustainability means to us and how we can meet our goals and then for the future, you know, we want to continue innovating within sustainability. There's a couple other changes we've made to our shipping fulfillment, our manufacturing, we've partnered with the B corp certified manufacturer, but there's always different areas that we can improve. So that's one thing that we just, we're constantly going to have a pulse on sustainability.
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And then I'd like to see the product get more awareness and actually become more of a household brand name, because even though natural deodorant seems like it's everywhere now, it still isn't as big of a market as it could be, I guess that makes any sense that, you know, this the natural trend as much as it had been accelerating, it's really now on the forefront, people are really thinking about preventative wellness, hygiene in a different way, You know, environmental toxins in a different way. So the past year has really changed anyone who kind of wasn't in that mindset before, It's really accelerated that whole interest in natural. So yeah, I'd like to see it become much more mainstream or people convert to natural deodorant and yeah, really adopting that lifestyle and understanding that it does work it works better over time because you're not just killing off all the bacteria under your armpits and masking it with the synthetic fragrance. You're literally working with the ecosystem under your armpit to neutralize odor.
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So actually there are studies that show if you're just killing off everything under your armpit it can actually proliferate certain types of bad bacteria in the long run. So you actually end up smelling worse unless you keep using and masking it with synthetic fragrances. So just like hoping that more people understand like what products are doing to their bodies and how natural can actually help you in the long term, both in the short term but also in the long term to be healthier and to do you know, to do essentially what you wanted to do wow, that's so interesting and I guess like that's why the education piece is so important because as you're talking I'm like yeah I didn't really know that. Like I knew that yeah natural is better for you but like I couldn't tell you why specifically. I didn't know what toxic things were in an aerosol can that you buy off, you know, the supermarket store kind of thing. That's crazy. It's really crazy. Yeah, it's like, it's such a mysterious area of our bodies, but it can tell you so much about your health, wow, I never thought of it like that. Thanks for one, Great to feel more educated right now, learning about armpits, I'm learning about stinky armpits and I love it, I'm all for it.
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What advice do you have for women who have a big idea and want to start their own business? I would say the easy part, actually, just looking back at my own journey, the easy part was coming up with the great product and a great brand and getting started, the hard part was what came after, you know, I would say to be more strategic about where you want to end up if you want to be a lifestyle business and you want something that doesn't take a ball of your time, like, you know, try to understand that and and be very upfront with yourself about that in the beginning, or if you want this to be uh massive company with hundreds of employees or if you want to IPO someday, like just understanding like strategically how you're going to set yourself up now to reach that goal, you know, I would say like that's my advice just because I, like I said with our journey, I had always wanted this to be a large brand, but we didn't set up the infrastructure with that in mind in the beginning, so I think it would have been a very different journey had we sort of been more strategic and proactive in the beginning versus you know, getting sort of thrown in and backtracking and trying to keep up with demand.
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Mm It's helpful to kind of know up front where you want to end up and of course that can change along the way, but at least having like some framework for the future, That's a really great piece of advice. So interesting to think about that. Thanks. At the end of every episode I asked a series of six quick questions, some of it we might have covered already, but I ask it all the same question. Number one is what's your why, why are you doing what you're doing? I have always been a huge proponent of this lifestyle. Um I love that my natural products work better, that they're healthier for me and for the environment and personally, you know, this is a journey that's helped me with so many different things in my life and I'm a huge proponent of it. I'm still learning about everything that I can with the time that I have, whether it's our Nevada or learning more about different areas of my life that I can be more sustainable or natural. So that's my why is I want to spread the word as much as possible through the brand?
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I want to continue promoting products that are better for people better for the environment and really contributing to this conversation. Amazing question Number two is what's been the number one marketing moment that made the business pop? Well, I would say that's probably short, That's an obvious one question. Number three is where do you hang out to get smarter? What are you reading or listening to or subscribing to that? Others would benefit from hearing. Let's see. So I have a few things right now. Like I said, I'm learning about our new Vegas, I'm reading RG veda in the mind. Really fascinating as far as podcasts. I I've started listening to how I built this, that's really popular one social areas, you know right now, I've had great learnings just from meeting other entrepreneurs and as that kind of in person interactions slowed down, I've tried to jump into clubhouse chats. There's a lot of companies and entrepreneurs that are doing online content now, whether it's like webinars or social media interviews or things like that.
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So And then yeah, I would say going back to the community aspect, like I learned so much from my peers, especially the ones who have been really successful in their careers. So a huge part of that is also finding a mentor and being open to having conversations, whether it's a short conversation in passing or establishing more of a long term mentorship relationship or even a support group. I have virtual support groups that I meet with almost every week now and we can just learn from each other, share resources. So that community component has been hugely helpful on my journey. Mm that sounds really cool question number four, How do you win the day? What are your AM or PM rituals and habits that keep you feeling happy and successful and motivated? Mhm Well working remotely now for as long as we have been, I think a change of scenery is helpful. So something as simple as going for a walk, doing yoga, my living room during lunch time, if I have time or if I can go work at a cafe just to get a change of scenery, those little things right now help a lot.
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But I think just the overall lifestyle of I guess I'll call it health and wellness is the general term for how I live. I try to incorporate as many things as possible that help me stay focused. So that could be yoga or learning about a new technique, whether it's like intermittent fasting is really in right now or if it's something like dry brushing or cold showers elixirs, you know, I don't drink coffee. I try to do t to get my caffeine. I'm always like on the lookout for little different bio hacks that I can just incorporate into my day and their low cost there really accessible and those are things that I can do every single day to just try to stay as focused as possible. Especially as an entrepreneur, You don't have a lot of free time and during the day you're jumping in between so many different things. So that focus and that sustained energy is really important. Mm I love a cold shower. I did cold showers for about four months over swiss winter, which was you know, crazy but also amazing.
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Best mood booster you can do. Yeah, I, I started doing this last year and like wait a minute, I'm so much more energetic in the morning after I take a cold shower. It definitely took a while to get used to it though. Yeah, it takes a while to get used to it. I feel like the first couple of times it's like so painful that you actually think cry Yes, but then it gets actually addictive and you're like, I want the cold shower, I'm gonna get back and yeah, I've been talking myself into it the last couple of days totally. Oh yeah, Question number five is usually I ask, what would you do with the last $1000 in your business bank account? But I'm changing it up and the question is now, what would you do if you were just given $1000 or say grant money, no strings attached money, what would you do? I would invest it in something new. So maybe all the costs that come with launching a new product because I don't think I wouldn't take it to inventory or like general operations or things that we should have covered by now by cash flow. Like I want to do something new and exciting, that's going to take the business in a new direction.
00:39:14Edit
Yeah, Amazing. And question # six, last question is how do you deal with failure? What's your mindset and approach when things don't go to plan? Yeah, I have to view everything as a growth opportunity because my journey has had so many different twists and turns and it's been at times just incredibly, incredibly challenging to manage with, you know, unexpected growth to kind of getting through difficult periods, two different changes that we've had to go through and then also getting through Covid, which is just sort of another level of challenge for any small business. So I just view them all as growth opportunities because if you get through one challenge, you know, you've learned something, you've strengthened yourself and you've proven to yourself that you can get through something that you otherwise didn't know you could survive. So yeah, I think that that's just always been my mindset now especially is that it's another growth and learning opportunity.
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